A Look Inside ESPN's Social Strategy with Kaitee Daley
Kaitee Daley, Sr. Director, ESPN Social, joined the show to talk about running all things social at the worldwide leader in sports and the balance that comes with staying on brand, managing over 40 accounts and overseeing TV Shows, Breaking News, ESPN personalities and Partners.
Kaitee gives us her take on a variety of topics, including: How to take risks and do things a little differently to make your brand stand out, managing internal feedback, continuing to grow their fanbase and the importance of quality over quantity and not just posting for the sake of posting.
Here are the highlights:
[15:20]: Do Brands Understand Who Their Consumer Is?
David: “Social touches everybody. Everybody has an opinion of what they would like to see, and why aren’t we doing this or doing that? How do you approach that?”
Kaitee: “ If i’m having a conversation with someone whose in the production department, i’ll ask them how they might feel if I sent an email about what I think should put XYZ in their A block. A lightbulb goes off, and people realize that there’s a science behind what we do.
Social media is so accessible, anyone can have a personal account. Anyone can see that retweet or like number, it does mean there are a lot more of those suggestions and conversations, but you help them understand there’s a reason there’s a department for this. We have everyones best interest at heart while we try and juggle it all!”
It is the Business of Social podcast powered by stn digital. It is a will, episode 30, which would be the, you said earlier, the Steph curry podcast. Who else? Who else? Who else is 30? Um, through, through, through the Dell curry where 32 is that why he has 30. Can't confirm nor deny. All right. Steph Curry's only people we know right now at the top of my head at 30. So it is great. Katie daily, she's the senior director of ESPN social. A lot of her, I'm sure engagement comes from Steph curry. So perfect episode to break it down with her, uh, was able to, uh, meet Katie a few months back and, um, you know, just having some conversations with her over the last few months. Uh, her and I've kind of geeked out over platform updates. We've also just had some conversations about social, where it's going, and I said, listen, we got to get you on the podcast.
So if she was able to get it all cleared through Disney and ESPN proper and all that stuff and she's coming on the show. So it's gonna, it's gonna be a really good one. I really want to ask her. Listen, there's so much stuff at ESPN social, if you think about it, when you talk about ESPN at sports in our first take and get up and all the different talent that is on that roster and all the different partners like the NBA and NFL and the UFC now and top rank boxing and all these different partners that you're, that you're starting to see, uh, whether it's, you know, partners that have been there for awhile or, or new partners, but really excited to just talk about how she manages all that, where he has priority, the team she has underneath her to make sure that, cause he asked me, it has to be on it. If, you know, Lebron hits the game winner, they can't be a day late. They got to get on it right away and how those processes internally, um, go down. So really excited to dig into it with Katie daily, the business social podcast. We're always breaking it down and making sure we give you the knowledge and expertise from the experts. So Hershey has Katie daily, senior director of ESPN social.
Alright guys. See us as senior director of ESPN social. Katie daily joins me. Katie, thank you so much for the time.
Thanks for having me.
Of course. Of course. Uh, Antici Day at Bristol, Connecticut as we court record this on a Tuesday, um, Turkey vultures are flying through Steve and ace missile window. So talk me through what happened when to find out what's the madness like over there.
This is true. Uh, I, I actually came out of a meeting and overheard some of my folks who work on first take social, say we can't touch the Turkey. You can't touch the Turkey right now. And I do a lot of weird things in social, but that one, that one made me pause. I was like, wait, it's not Thanksgiving or are you guys talking about a Turkey right now? And at that moment they were like, turn around and look behind you because our, our social area, uh, is right near where the incident occurred, where the Turkey vulture, um, unfortunately flew into
even a Turkey vulture look like, am I like that out of touch or what?
Turkey vulture. Yeah. I mean normally it's geese on, on campus. That's sort of our unofficial mascot. Um, but the Turkey gets, yeah, not an attractive bird. That is true. So thus commenced a discussion about how to, how to cover a Turkey vulture flying into a window on campus. And I think what's interesting is that we have, you know, we have a lot of considerations, right? As a big company, um, a lot of responsibility and with this particular situation [inaudible] handbook, right. Adam Schefter had already, Adam Schefter, um, has been fantastic working with us on social and he on his own and Trey Wingo as well tweeted about the incident shared photos and that started taking traction. Um, I had conversations with my PR counterparts, facilities counterparts, just on, you know, what level of we want to bring to something like that. Um, I can remember a few years back we had a goat on campus that became, that became big news, made our snapchat show. So, uh, yeah, never adult. Never. Never a dull day. David.
Yeah, developing items such as says Turkey vulture updates, security and maintenance are still patching up the window. His original tweet as we stand here today, this is seven hours ago, 42,000 likes on Twitter. It's pretty cool stuff. Um, I always ask a random question at the top of the sale so I'll give you a somewhat random one. Stephen A. Smith versus Max Kellerman. If they're in a debate right and the word is Lebron James and they both have to talk for as long as they possibly can about Lebron James. Who Do you think wins that debate and how long do they go for?
What a great question. I'm going to go with Stephen a. The man does first take, he does a radio show. He regularly contributes to social media to sports center. Sometimes he'll get on a plane, he'll be at an event, I mean
book lives on his spare time.
The motor on that guy is, is unreal to use a little bit of an NFL draft turn here. I'm getting into the getting into the group. Um, yeah. So I'm going to go, I'm going to go see veneer. Yeah,
I am. I have to agree. I think he probably could go for a solid, I would say over two hours. I think you could just go just on a monologue or more [inaudible]
yeah, I would say I would fill our buster. I would take the over. I would take the over on site too.
Take over two hours. Um, no, but honestly he is, he is amazing because I mean over the last, uh, I don't know decade now if any trade breaks, if any breaking news, they get 'em on sports center. I just, it's so, it feels like sometimes he works 19 hours in one day and he's on every single program. Like he goes on, get up, he goes on first take, then his radio. So then he's on sports center hits and then he's on outs of the lines talking about a culture issue or whatever. Like it's a, he definitely works his butt off. He deserves every day.
Yes he does. He's impressive.
Um, I want to get into your story. You are very unique in the fact you've been at ESD for nine years now. I was looking at your, your linkedin, so take a little trip down memory lane, but you started back in 2013 as an associate for social media. Then you moved to editor, then senior editor, then director of social content and now you're a senior director of ESPN social and our industry, so many people move every two to three years and they hop back and forth. It seems like for you, you've had a very linear, um, you know, career situation where at each step of the way, or maybe you were ready to move up and get more responsibility ESPs provide that for you. So you've just stayed put and continued that a trajectory.
Yeah, I think, I think the one way to put it is that the company, the company grew the social media department along with my, my personal career growth. So the timing was, was really fortunate for me. And I do feel like I was a little bit of a leading a startup within a big company. And so I was able to be challenged and grow in different ways as the industry as you know, changed very quickly.
Well, we and STN started in April, 2013 and we were pitching bleach report style blogs and website infographics to sports teams. So even back when you started in 2013 and I talk about this a lot with people on the show, the see that growth and see how the team has built, I'm sure it's as complete night and day from when you first started at ESPN.
Yeah. So, so when I got to ESPN, I was in the first, uh, digital rotational program for entry level employees. And so I spent time on the digital video team, on the mobile web editing team, the SEO team. I, I just did this rotation of things. And, and back then the mobile, the mobile team was a separate team from the desktop team,
ESPN, the phone. When would that come out? Was that way before your time? Or
wasn't way before, but I, so I heard stories, but I wasn't, I wasn't a part of that. Um, I, but I did work on, you know, when first take firsthand it's website first launch its website. At that time a lot of our show properties were getting just starting to get into the digital space. And so I transitioned from the rotational program
to um, what was, uh, uh, content integration role, but it was really about taking television content and making sure that it had a home digitally. And then conversely, making sure that our, uh, linear shows were aware of digital content. So at the time there was a, a little, kind of like the bottom line, but there was a rotational graphic on TV and I would pitch stories that should be promoted. And the, and the TV space,
this isn't always, it's actually called first take or is this back in the cold pizza days
it was, it had been rebranded. So get that time. Yeah,
it does make me feel old. I feel like this stuff happened a few years ago. Um, how do you do it? Because, I mean, you guys have so many initiatives and you have so many sales and first taking get up and sports center and ESPN and I'm sure people out in the world, I think you have hundreds and hundreds of people to help with that. And that's not necessarily the case. So I'd love to see like how you guys are currently set up and how there's so many. Let's do it now. Whack-A-Mole things and Turkey vultures going through windows, like how do you package all those accounts and all that stuff.
Yeah, it's, it's a lot, a lot of coffee. Um, yeah, I joked the other day I told someone I feel like 50% of my job is finding a very polite way to say no. Um, because we produce tremendous content on a number of different platforms. So it's a lot to juggle. Um, I'm fortunate enough to lead a really talented teams. So the way that we're set up, we don't have, um, a lead by platform. We have a centralized team of 25 people against 45 different accounts, um, right now. So 15 different properties on three different platforms. And as you can imagine, these are, these are Swiss army knife people. They can, they use Photoshop, they can edit video, they're strong copy editors, they have great news judgment. So when we look to build the team out, we really are looking for someone who can do all of those things.
And that enables us to be flexible depending on the news of the day. So we, when we come in, we have a morning huddle, we talk about what is, what is going on in the sports, where, what of fans care about? Um, and what does social fans care about? Right. Cause that can be somewhat of a different answer. Um, yeah, and from there we, I would say 80 plus percent of what we do is going to be reactionary and we wouldn't want it any other way. We really want to make sure we're ready for the big moments, but also ready to just react when news happens. And, uh, we have a team out in la as well, so we have a little bit of that late night coverage. And I don't want to overlook our, our really talented snapchat teams. So fit, there are about 15 people who produce now three snapchat shows, two daily shows, one weekly, uh, focused on MMA. Uh, and you know, that's, that's a different kind of grind. But, um, they're really, I have the team to thank for a semblance of sanity.
Yeah. I mean you guys have so many partners too, right? The NFL, the NBA, the mls, I mean the LISC UFC top rank, boxing, all that. Um, how do you prioritize that? Cause is it more just like, let's be more reactionary in the moment and cause I think you can probably agree, you could probably easily justify hopping on a daily call with the NFL every day and talk about social strategy and what are we doing and what about the MVP and what about the kickoff? Um, but how do you, how have you kind of found a way to juggle all of that and prioritize?
Yeah, so for us, I would say we start by, uh, doing planning around temple events, right? And what we found is that for our partners, that's where a lot of their focus is as well. Uh, making sure that we align ahead of something like the NBA postseason. So we'll have the meeting this week with the MBA and talk to them about, you know, here are our plans, what are your plans, where can we, where can we be collaborating? Um, and, and in that way, it makes it a lot more manageable. We're not having to have daily conversation and we really are able to all put gasoline on the, the most important fire for, for our external partners.
From a salsa standpoint, knowing that Lebron will not be in the playoffs. I'm sure you're upset about the engagement that you usually get from that guy being on your feeds.
Yeah, I know you're a big Lakers guy, so I guess apologies to you. That's the only, that's the only one you'll get from me as a salt expand. Um, but this interview's over guys. Thanks. [inaudible] wrap it up. Yeah. Yeah. You guys got done Kyrie and all that stuff. So it's not, it's not all right. It's not all bad. It hasn't been sunshine and rainbows for yeah. For Salts fans this season. Um, no, I think it's a challenge, not just for social. Right. Um, and I am sure that every, everybody is thinking about what, what does that impact, um, what's the Lebron Halo effect? And, and we know because the, the data's so readily available as you know, in the social space, um, despite the comments that make fun of how much you cover the stars. Um, we also fundraising, it's always play the hits. It's always funny to me because then, you know, you almost want to be like, well look up at the, you know, number of views, the number of legs, the number of comments. Um, so yeah, it is sort of a, uh, an interesting there
of stars, but it will be, will be interesting to see what he does on social media. You know, we'll be monitoring that. Is he going to be active, um, in, in commentating on games?
Yeah. I'm, I'm just, you can just tell a fans like the Marcus smart highlights this don't perform as well as the Lebron dunks, unfortunately, so.
Right. As much as I love [inaudible], I'm all about listening. I'm all about the hustle and the defense though.
How do you, uh, that's an interesting question that digging it a little bit more because there is a, I guess a fine line, right? Like ESPN becoming every other, because technically every other post being Lebron or McGregor like these like huge stars, these top five guys in sports, uh, would really help engagement and help your algorithm and help your batting average and everything like that. Uh, but you have to kind of find that balance. So is there any, any checks and balances internally where you guys are like, Eh, let's, I know we want to post that 19th Lebron dunk, but let's try to, let's try to, we'll wheel it back a little bit.
Yeah, I think overall we pay a lot of attention to everything that gets posted is tagged for us. Um, and we will have a weekly meeting where we them, uh, we use spread fast or the company fairway notice, Red Oros is the new, yeah, the new term. Um, and yeah, so we, we run reports and then we have two. Me reports are a part of the equation, but it's really about having a conversation and trying to put ourselves in the shoes of sports fans on a weekly basis and say, okay, the numbers are saying this and, and that's important. That's an input. What are the fans, what are the fans say? And then what do you all feel as sports fans, right? We all got into this because we are sports fans and we have to remove ourselves from the bubble sometimes and say, um, is there something that, is there something that we're missing?
Is there a storyline that we are an angle that a different angle we need to approach? Um, yeah, yeah. And when you say that, go ahead. Sorry. No, I was just gonna say a, an interesting example. I think, um, you know, with the women's tournament happening right now, obviously simultaneously to the men's tournament, um, there are great checks and balances at this company. There are people who will send emails. We'll notice we'll reach out and just say, hey, like a heads up, here's what I'm seeing in my personal feed, in my personal algorithm. I'm not seeing maybe as as much coverage of the women's tournament as I think there should be. And that sparks a really smart conversation about, okay, well everyone's experience, uh, on social is going to be a little different, but how are we making sure that we're surveying, um, fans and that we're using all the different of all the 15 accounts, we're using those wisely. So we're using ESPN W we're using sports center for those top plays and that news and we're using, you know, as our umbrella account.
I wanted to get into that as well as like, you, you think you missed something to me. Um, a few weeks ago we were just chatting social touches, everything like PR and marketing and the executives and the partners and Stephen a and Max Kellerman and like it just, it touches everybody. So I'm sure everybody has a certain opinion about what they would like to see or why aren't we doing this. Um, and that comes across the entire department, I'm sure. Um, how have you attacked those situations and how is, how do you kind of approach that?
Well, first of all, I feel like I need to use you in like a campaign for, um, resources here. Yeah. You keep talking about, um, and you're, and you're spot on and it's a lot. Um, I think one of the things I like to, one of the tools I like to use is perspective. So if I'm having a conversation with a person who's been in the production department for most of their career, um, and they've, they've let us show, I will ask them how they might feel about me sending an email, um, that they should put x, y, and Z and they're a block, hey, I really think you're a boss. I should look this way. Um, and honestly, the reaction I get, um, a lot of times is that a little bit of a light bulb goes off and there's, there's more of a recognition of, okay, this is, there's a science, there's a science to what we're doing here.
It's, it's not just a distribution funnel. And, um, we need to, we need to treat this team, um, just as we would the golden rule, right? Just as we would want to be treated if someone were, um, commenting or suggesting on our own rundown. Um, so because social media is so accessible, um, and anyone can have a personal account, anyone can sort of see that, that retweet or that like number, it does mean that there are a lot more of those suggestions and conversations. But I think over time you build trust with your colleagues and you help them, you help them understand that there's a reason there's a department for this. Um, and that we really do have everyone's best interests in mind and we're just trying to juggle it all.
That's a really, really good point. Um, because I think we've dealt with a lot of partners where their PR team has a certain, um, they want to get more PR stuff and sales wants to get more sales stuff on the feeds and you know, the game more than anybody. And like me, you're fighting against us though. Cause you know the audience, I'm like it and you know, it's being disingenuine to the platform. Um, and I use that example too. Like, Hey, you have these valuable PR relationships. Just because someone says, let's get in Forbes, let's get in Forbes, let's get in Forbes. You're not going to call your Forbes columnists every single day bugging the hell out of them and ruining that relationship just because you want to get on Forbes. I think I take that serious. I think you do too. As far as the audience goes, just because this is an initiative I'm not going to put, you know, on ESPN cares, like, you know, a charity thing every single day. Am I, am I content calories? It's not, it's not being genuine to the audience type deal.
Yeah. And most people really do. Uh, once you, once you explain it and, and, and you take the time to explain it, it does take time. Um, I would say most people are, are really good partners and, and they do understand, um, it, it just, it can take time. And I think for, for us internally, we are in a really good place now where we've, we've built up some of that trust and, and equity.
Yeah. I think it was a battle we all fought for the last five years or so. People are starting to definitely take a more serious. All right. You and I were, um, I think you were one of the first people I email. We were kind of geeking out over IGT v and we both were excited about. And again, I think the biggest thing I said on the last podcast is I think Instagram tried to create a separate platform in IGT v and kind of go one to one with youtube. And what it really was was an additional feature for Instagram and now that they've included it in feed and you can watch more past a one minute, I'm just really excited about the long format pieces that can be on Instagram. And I know you were excited about the, the algorithm and I all that stuff as well when it came to that content.
Yeah, absolutely. And we knew it was, we knew it was coming. Um, so we were, we just said we didn't know exactly when, but, uh, we figured that we should be prepared for that time to come when, uh, the algorithm was turned on and more attention was brought to IGT v. So really we're tackling it, uh, in, in three different ways. Uh, the first is that we do have, we do have some shows that we're piloting, um, on HGTV that we're really excited about. One of them is called what's good hosted by Trevor scales, who's fantastic, um, highly recommend checking that out. That's, uh, on our ESPN account. And the other is the x, y, which is a little bit more of an in depth, um, you love it as an MBA, big NBA fan, Kurt Goldsberry. Um, just brilliant minds, uh, as it relates to the game.
And he'll take, he'll take a particular, uh, storyline, stat storyline, uh, ahead of the game and break that down. Uh, and then we have a talented, uh, graphics producer that has, is, um, has basically married his insights with, uh, with the stats. So that's, that's one that we're, that we're also excited about. And then beyond the shows, there's just the, we have, we have so many smart voices in sports that are talking every single day about topics. So take Lebron since you brought it up earlier. Um, should, when the debate was, you know, should Lebron shut it down for the year? We had a Stephen a voice on the subject, we had a Rachel Nichols voice on the subject. We had a Michelle beetle voice.
I think I saw that.
Yeah, we put that all. And um, and, and that was a great, I think IGT v experience. So that's more of your contextually relevant, um, call it daily compilation. Yep. And then the third is a bread and butter thing for first sports center and that's highlights. So Se top 10, um, or a top five compilation of NBA plays. Compilations did not work well for us, uh, in feed prior to IGT v. Um, and now we're, we're seeing that that appetite return.
What is your take on, I know this is getting really granular, but is your, does everything have to be vertical? Are you open to kind of rotate and devices and things like that? To get it out. Like what's your,
I'm an anti, I'm an anti, uh, rotate a stab, an anti, right.
It costs a lot of manpower and a lot of, you know, woman power I to say to, um, to, to make that stuff vertical and reformat and all that stuff too. So
it does, it does. But to me there's a, it's so important that we're delivering content to fans off platform that is authentic and made for them. And, um, I think people, people are savvy enough to know when something is produced for them and when it's not. And sure if you have a really fantastic piece of video that you're just not going to be able to reformat in time. I understand on occasion. Um, but for the most part, I, I definitely want our team to focus on producing four for platform the way that we know most people are gonna be holding their phones.
I totally agree. Um, all right. So you sit down with a lot of execs, you have a lot of partners, um, and you, you're, you're told to go explain social to these folks. So I would love to hear, and I think I told you via email, like I love how you kind of broke it down when I heard you do that, but what's kind of your elevator pitch or what are the, the three bullet points that you hit if you're going to be talking to a 70 year old exact that you know, owns an NFL team or what have you, that may not really know how it all works. Like what's your go to couple of lines to try to try to teach him.
Oh, interesting. Um, I think one of my GoToMeeting is that it is letting them know that we don't make the rules of the road, that platforms are going to make decisions about what to filter to the followers on that platform and that those decisions could change. Uh, because a big part of, a big part of a social strategy is being nimble and being able to say Ige TV is a great example. Um, being able to be prepared for, um, the inevitable change that will come. And then typically when you say the word algorithm, if it's someone who is not familiar with the social space, you gotta look. And, um, so because in sports, I, I do enjoy sports analogies and having a batting average is something that I'll, I'll talk about how I stole that from you by the way. So did I, did I get credit? Yeah. Do I get like the t
I brought, I burn your ad handle into it.
Nice. Um, but yeah, you, you want to make sure it's so, so I always say like, hey, you want to be cognizant of your accounts, engagement, batting average. Um, you don't want to be posting multiple, uh, outings where you're, oh, for four. Um, oh for five. So, um, so that would be, that would be another one. A lot of people that we meet with, um, sort of come from a, uh, from a TV first mentality. Um, so I like to, I like to let them know that most of our audiences sound off is growing sound offs and that most of our, and this is her for feeds, obviously not for a platform like youtube, but um, and also that we really have about three to five seconds to capture their attention. Um, and normally the reaction to that is not a positive one, but a lot of times what I notice is, especially with people who have children that are, that are teens or younger is there is a moment of recognition. It's like, Oh yes. Yeah, the, you know, I don't have a lot of time to capture attention. There is sort of this, um, thumb scroll society that we're, that we're living in, um, on social feed platforms.
Yeah. Especially with snapchat. I mean, you'll notice when you guys watch your content or anybody else's content that's successful and it moves every second. There's a cut every single second. It's zooming in, zooming out, swipe, swipe like, and that's because you have to hold that attention. And if nobody, nobody wants to look at somebody talking now for, you know, 30 seconds straight. There has to be movement to it on social anyway. Maybe not linear, but
yeah. Yeah. Talking had content without some sort of graphic without some sort of additional layer there. Yeah, it's a huge challenge.
I asked this question a lot on this show. I would love to hear the first thing that comes to mind, a common mistake that you see other brands in the social space making.
I would say a common mistake I see is the need to fill air time. Um, as another, another media analogy. The, so I guess the, the thinking that someone might go to your actual account on Twitter and scroll through and see that, oh, you've only posted three times in the past hour and that's a travesty. Yeah. Um, because we're all, again, we're all in this bubble. We're all in this social bubble and maybe that's behavior that you and I, um, might, might take on, but for most followers, they're Justin feed. And, um, if you're putting con, if you're, if you're mass tweeting or you're putting a lot of volume out there without a lot of thought behind it, I think that um, and same for Instagram stories actually I've seen, I've seen some um, people using Instagram stories in a really high volume capacity and I, to me, I think you're much better off, uh, doing, doing less better, right? Any last overall better.
I've been using this analogy and see if you like it, but I really like it. Social, I've always used TV as kind of the blueprint because when NBC looked at their 24 hour calendar, they're like, we have to fill up these 30 minute slots. And they had friends and Frasier and Seinfeld filled these different things. They add show runners, producers, they put budget behind that. They had the best set designers of the game cause it was important for that 30 minutes to be really, really well done. They didn't just throw some random person with like a purple background as talking for an hour. Like they, they thought a lot about it before they put it on TV. And I think for us, if we're still not there yet, but people don't understand like, no, no, no, we have to think about it. We're not just throwing stuff to the wall type deal.
Yeah, no, I, I, I like that analogy. I, I couldn't agree more. So yeah, just like volume for the sake of volume or volume for the sake of checking, checking the box. Okay. We did the, we did the thing.
Exactly. Yeah. Um, so what is the main ROI or KPI that your executives are looking for you to do? Because like we just mentioned, if Lebron's not in the playoffs, may be no matter what you guys do, you work your butt off, you work 18 hour days and you may not year over year, your numbers may not be as good as last year just because of he had buzzer beaters and these different things happens. So you can't always just look at numbers like that. So what's the main thing or main metric you're looking at are kind of what you guys are judged on as a department?
It's several things. So it does depend on the platform. One of the, one of the primary things we're tasked with, and it's a, a priority of our, our new presidents is uh, expanding our audience and reaching, reaching a new demo, reaching younger fans who are not consuming sports content the way that they once were. So that is, snapchat is a great example there, right? We are, it's produced very differently for that demo. Um, we look at watch time there, we look at loyal users, how many, how many people are watching four days or more in a week. Uh, and we're really excited and happy with those numbers. Um, so that would, that would be one. Um, another would just be adding, uh, awareness and engagement around our core properties and our company priorities. So with NFL draft coming up as an example, um, we'll have, we'll be on, say we'll do this, the snap show there, we'll have a Twitter live show, we'll have a producer for IGT, v I d stories.
I'm really just adding, adding more engagement and engagement as you know, by platform will vary. But, um, blitz saying to use another sports algae blitzing a, a big event is, is part of that. Um, and then with the, with the rise and evolution of e plus, um, driving referrals there and awareness of the programming that we have on e posts is, um, is another important charge of our team. And I also have a manager who's focused on social revenue. So He's, um, 100% of his time, his social sponsorship. He has someone who works for him that focuses on social brand and content. So we do recognize, uh, to your earlier question about being asked to do a lot and sales, um, you know, asking, asking for our support. We do want to make sure that we're, uh, growing our, our social revenue and we're giving clients the opportunity to, um, spend with us in ways they haven't. Before.
I noticed there, there was a shift in the last couple of years with you guys because, and this was at every television network. Don't upload that eight minute hot take of Stephen A. Smith, make them turn the TV on the watch that we don't want to give them this free opportunity type deal. And it seems like the gates have opened up across multiple networks. Would the executives down or Stan? Well, yeah, those people a may have not been watching at that point. This can get us eight and a half million views. This can get us brand awareness for them to hopefully start tuning in. So how has the metric, I'm assuming when you first started was like, let's get people to turn the TV on and now it's at least shifted slightly where it's like, no, it's still really good if we get people get eyeballs on our content.
Yeah. I mean it's, it's very difficult to measure, right? And I know we have a ton of different, a lot of companies are looking into this and, and Neilson, um, with youtube and what we're excited about the progress that we feel is, is to come in terms of that connectivity between social engagement and interaction
that a lot easier too.
Yeah. And I, yeah. So I think, um, I think with any magnet, it is important to have a portfolio strategy. And we, we always did at all take, let's take Facebook for an example. Yeah. Um, we were both up around and working in the business when, uh, link shares where everything. Yeah. Um, I know many, many websites were driving, uh, a big chunk of, of traffic from Facebook,
Sure. Yeah. As an example. Um, so you don't want to, but you don't want to have all your eggs in one basket. And, um, we never, we never did. We were never, uh, so on referral traffic or referring like when I say referral, I even mean referring audience to a show and doing something like a straight tune in tweet. We were never so focused on just that, that we weren't able to pivot when, when things changed. And so, um, I do think philosophically there is more of a recognition and there's more data to support. Hey, it's, it's important from a brand lift perspective that, um, someone connect with Stephen A. Smith in his take and we keep using CVA as an example, but he's, he's fantastic at this, both on his personal account, which is something we've started to support more. We were supporting talent, um, socially and in a way that we never, we never had before. And then also through something like the, you know, our youtube channel, um, so philosophically there, there has been a shift, but at the end of the day we're, we're always trying to think about that, that bigger picture company goal and, and the bottom line.
Yeah, absolutely. Um, I thought, and that I thought was interesting. So when you guys first did sports center on Snapchat, um, that was really kind of the first time ESPN went to the platform, I think before, and I cried me if I'm wrong, before it was like, no, we're the worldwide leader in sports. You can come to us. We have all the platforms, we have an app, we have a TV, you know, we have a TV channel, but to create a show specifically for one platform, it seemed like, you know, 15 people on that product. That was a huge initiative. And like, let's go after this younger demo and let's put resources behind this. Um, rather than saying, you know what young [inaudible] you come to us, we have a TV channel type deal.
Yeah. We had been, so I was a part of our, our initial launch on snapchat, which is the discover channel. Yup. Um, actually interesting memories cause we launched it from this very tiny room that I know in the mid, in the middle of a snow storm. Um, and I do think the shift to show the PR, the production resources that go into that, yes. Definitely an investment in a little bit of a strategic shift of hey, we, we can produce really great shows. Um, if platform, you know, and maybe they're not just just for linear. Yeah. That's going to be a constant. Um, we did first take your take with Facebook, um, last summer and, uh, as another example of, of show licensing. And so, you know, we're always going to think about is this, what does this show a fit for? Is it a fit for snap? Is it a fit for Facebook? Is it fit for Twitter? We're doing, um, a lot of Twitter y shows of my counterparts overseeing that, that effort. So yeah, we, we've, we're definitely more active in that, in that space than we had been before.
I look Saturday you for the potential of ESPN plus because I mean still obviously ESPN from a linear standpoint, that's where the bulk of the revenue is made and obviously the cable subscribers, uh, $6 a month and all that as we're transitioning you and I more than anybody understand this digital wave and the importance of it where it's going, but how excited are you for that? Because what excites me anyway is like we can actually track the data and know that someone went to Twitter and then watched 60 minutes of a show on ESPN plus where like you just mentioned earlier, it was very difficult to track if not impossible to some of the go on Instagram flipped the TV on and no, they did that because
yeah, I know I've heard that smart TVs are, are somewhat able to track that, which is terrifying but a little bit exciting. Yeah. I'm, I'm excited. I'm excited about, he pause for a lot of, um, different reasons. I think that the, I think that the spotlight it's put on, on sports that have really great fan followings, uh, that maybe were previously less tapped in the, in the social space has been exciting. But to your point about tracking, um, yeah, it's great to be able to say, hey, if you're, if you're interested in Kobi detail, yeah. Um, here you go, watch, watch, go eat detail, here's the link and, and track how many people are taking that action.
And also to know, like, let's, let's upload a full episode of first take. Let's put it on Twitter with a subscriber link or to a sign up page and then say like, you know, we did take everything off linear and give it free for digital, but it resulted in this many sign ups, which longterm ROI says this. It is, I know it's always been tough to do that. So [inaudible]
yeah, I think the biggest challenge is just as honestly is just kind of staffing up to be able to cause as you know, when you're, when you have to pull those reports, when you are setting up to 25 people alone, I mean Disney and Disney streaming services, um, you know, sets up our sets up the paid campaigns and, and I know that they've, they've been building out their team. Um, so it is just a lot, a lot more coordination and a lot of logistics and a lot of people power.
Yeah, absolutely. So when you talk about getting to different demos that may not necessarily like sports content and you're trying to get them into your guys' world, I know this one thing you guys have done a lot of is UGC content. Um, can you, you mentioned that I think you broke it down into really eloquently about the fields and making sure that content, um, whether it's an 85 year old grandmother or a 90 year old, you know, female walking home from school that a resonates and they, they enjoy that content. How have you seen that help you guys reach different demos on air platforms?
I think the content that makes you feel something is just universally more successful on, on social. Whether that's, um, something that content that we own. Like, uh, when Randy Moss found out about his hall of fame nomination and his reaction, um, or it's something from, like you said, it's a sixth grader, um, or a parent that, that posted something. I think that for, for many people it's, um, social media can be somewhat of a downer, right? And I don't think I'm breaking any news that, um, there are, there are a lot of negative things about social media, but when you see something, uh, Special Olympics, we just, we just aired when you see someone, a special Olympic athlete, Deb lift and celebrate that Denver pounds. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, it's inspiring. It's great, right? It, it makes you want to share. And, um, one of the things that, one of the things we know is that there are influencers.
I know we could, we could do a whole separate topic on influencers, but, but your followers are your influencers too, right? Like each person has a network, you know, if they join Facebook around the time you and I joined Facebook, you know, they're going to have a decent number of friends. And as we know, Facebook's algorithm is more likely to sh to show you something that your friend has shared then from a brand now. So anyway, we think about, we think about generating the fields. Um, the tricky thing with UGC is that it's not distinctive to, you know, your just your brand. Anyone can do it. Um, different companies have different levels of, um, hurdles to clear in terms of permissions, um, how they're gonna go about that courtesy. Um, for us, we have to think about things like if a, if a child is involved, um, how are we, you know, we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the parent. Would the parents say, you know, um, as a Disney company, like I don't think you should have embarrassed by my child who, um, fell over when they were crossed up. I mean, there's so many, there's so many different calculations with UGC that, that we do take into account. We take very seriously. But yeah, at the end of the day it does help us. It does unlock that more casual fan, um, who's not, who's not scrolling through and following us because they want the stats and info nugget on. Um, you know, Kyrie urbane and his PR.
Yeah. And I think some colleagues in our space may not agree with that approach. I totally agree with the approach. I think in that, since the beginning of television, it's always been an aggregation of content, whether it's a newscast, whether it's a sports cast at the end of a local NBC hit sports center. That's the aggregator of all the best highlights for the top 10. Yup. Yeah. So I think I've always, again, using TV as kind of the blueprint, like that's why people tune them in the news. So you can give me the top 10 stories and that's why people tune in the ESPN or sports and they give me the highlights, give me what I should be paying attention to. So from a social strategy, I don't see why people don't agree with that. But
yeah, it's, it's really, to me it's, um, it's part of the foundation foundational offering that we feel like our fans deserve. We know that they like it. We're going to, we're going to give them that content. Yeah. I'm not at the expense of doing other distinctive original things. Right. It's always in addition to. Yeah. Um, but yeah.
Um, all right. So I wanted to get your take on this, cause I, I, we've talked about on this show before, I feel like ESPN and you can probably start laughing at this. You guys have a target on your back obviously, and I think it's unnecessary. Um, you obviously Disney proper and everything like that, but why does everything, whether it's an ESPN employee or anything that happens in your guys' world, feel like an official press statement from the board of trustees at Disney. Like that just doesn't happen at Turner. It doesn't happen at other networks. And I don't know if there's the brands, but like if a, if a sideline reporter that is very like just as one telecast for you guys on ESPN to set something on Twitter, I feel like that then becomes like a statement from the Disney brass. And I don't know why, why that is.
I think a part of it is just that brand recognition, you know, with great power comes great responsibility. I mean, we're the worldwide leader in sports and have been, and I don't think that's me tooting the horn. That's just sort of calling it, calling it like it is. And uh, anytime you're in that position, I think you are subject to greater scrutiny. And, uh, for, you know, my, my team knows that. They know that, um, with any, any press of a button, there are just millions, millions of people who could, um, share an opinion with very powerful people, um, at the company, outside of the company. Um, and it's, it's high pressure. I think one of the, not to take this completely off topic, but I do think that something Adam silver said recently just about, you know, his concern for his players and their mental health. Yeah. I don't think that we fully know right now and have tapped into the, uh, longterm effects and mental health of working in an industry where you're regularly exposed to negative commentary where you're reg regularly exposed to really high pressure situations. Um, breaking news, having to react, um, having to be mistake free. Um, yeah, I just, it's, I think we're going to find that there are, um, there are other ways that we need to be supporting people who choose this. Um, this career path.
I know, it's funny you say that cause I think you and I are the first generation that has had to deal with it and there hasn't been, we can't ask our parents how they dealt with it. There. There wasn't really any rules of you can only be on, you know, I guess particularly video games like you said, had play video games all day. Let's, let's limit you to two hours just so you can go play outside. Um, always social media, Eh, we don't have enough data. We don't have enough time. And I think maybe when our kids, we can probably tell them how to deal with it a little bit better, but it's moved so quickly. It's the first generation that's had to deal with it. So there's no prior experience.
Yeah. Okay. How I pivoted completely away from the uh, ESPN. No, I'm kidding.
It's very nice to flex it. No, but it's true. Um, the reason I asked that because for you specifically, you guys can post a Lebron highlight and somebody could decide to have the copy. That was a crazy, crazy cross yo. And somebody can say, well, let's just say that was a copy. They made a weird, this isn't like, why are they saying that? Is that how black people talk or you know, it becomes this huge thing and I'm sorry, I'm sure for you, like you're training your staff, like every word, every copy, if we misspell someone's name, it's going to be looked at again as this official press release from the Walt Disney Company. So it's,
yeah. And I think that's, that really is the importance of um, having different, having different social brands in your, in your portfolio. Yeah. And also when in working with our talent. So I have someone who focuses exclusively on talent, social support, and we make sure that we arm them with great content they can have, I mean, to go back to the Turkey vulture incident, um, in all honesty, like Stephen a and chef de can joke about that. Um, and people are going to engage with that as you saw. Um, I, I truthfully think if we were to take that same approach from as they could count like ESPN two groups, the whole deal. Yeah. I just thought about that. That's great. Yep. All right. And welcome to my madness. I'm saying no, that's the idea. Yeah. Yeah. It has to be a constant calculation and we, you know, we have, um, we have sports nation, which was a digital property and social property actually at the same time it became a television show, but it still exists as a, as a social property. And that's where we have a little bit more fun. It's not in the same way the NFL has the checked out. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think it's smart to have these, to have other brands out there that aren't subject to quite as much scrutiny.
And you know, Turner's done that with bleacher report, uh, pgas and that was scratched as well. They can make fun of tiger and they can do some things that do not put that on the app PGA account please. Uh, so I think it's, uh, every major brand. That's one mistake I think brands are making is they're not creating the sub channels that talk to their different audiences and the right way and everything's coming from the mothership account. And that's just really different.
Yeah. I mean it's, it's gonna be very difficult for your mothership account to not come across as a mother or father. Have you think that's true? That's a good point. Teammates, anytime you're, you're representing a corporation. Um, and we do, we do think about that. I mean it's tough cause we try to strike the balance of, we don't want to be bland and uptight because it's social media. Yes and no. Right. But it was a time you don't want to, we don't want the, I'm Steve Buscemi meme of like trying too hard and trying to be cool.
Yeah. 100%. All right, so we're kind of wrapping up, so I want to get some rapid fire questions. Since your time at ESPN, what was the most successful viral, if you remember the numbers, that'd be awesome too. But that maybe you didn't, you didn't think that it was going to go crazy, but it just took off like
my crazy. Well, one of my favorite examples is for the celebrity softball game this past summer. Uh, as part of all star MLBs all star weekend we posted a bill Nye the science guy with a very, like, feeble single and it blew up at the yacht. I mean, yeah, in the Soulja. Right. I mean people just, people loved it. Um, and so that one stands out to me. Just all been the solid ones stand out to me cause they tend to surprise people that that, um, nineties, early two thousands nostalgia is really a sweet spot for our followers and engagement patterns. Um, from this past college football season. Um, the band, oh, they're going to be mad at me if I don't get it right, but I think it was Ohio state did the floss, did the backpack kid formation and that, again, I'm not giving you numbers, um, which I should, I don't have it in front of me, but I mean that ha that generated millions and millions and millions and millions of years. Yeah.
What about for like growth? Um, you've been there for nine years, so you've seen different moments. Were accounts have just spiked or doubled in growth or, um, especially, I, I, it seems like the highlight restrictions have definitely loosened up since when you first started and digital, uh, was there anything like that where it's like, okay, Katie, you and your team are allowed to Post MBA highlights and the sports center account went from whatever, 2 million to 29 million, like over six months or anything crazy like that that you've seen
ESPN and sports center hard cause they, they scaled really quickly early on. Um, I was one of the first
you've met mass saturation in a way like [inaudible].
Yeah. So I mean, at some point you're looking at, um, you know, you want to look at engagement average, but there are so, so many people that follow the account that don't even log onto the platform anymore. Um, so that can be, that can throw you off a little bit. So we're, I mean, most recently, honestly, I've been, um, thrilled with our MMA Instagram account growth. Um, I think our 140,000 followers right now and rabid, rabid fan base and launched, yeah. Launched January 1st. So that's a lot of growth in a short period of time. Um, and a behind that or is that all organic? All organic. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, especially mature. It's really exciting. That's a gram. Yeah. Yeah. I mean Instagram right now has, I think 75% of all sports actions that are taking place right now, um, in the sports media space are happening on Instagram.
So, so we recognize that that's it's a growing platform and the engagement engaging platform, I'm trying to think of other like really amazing spikes, um, that we, that we saw in growth. I would say the sport accounts. Um, college football, the first few seasons of being onsite for College Game Day and signs, I mean, just, yeah, talk about walking a fine line of edgy and um, and voice. But the college game day science and the, the interaction around just any college football Saturday, it's like you look at the Saturday numbers, even the Sunday residual numbers and there,
um, through the roof. And then they come back, um, during the week. And then spike again.
I'm a big fan of SEC network. Uh, hint, hint, wink, wink. Um, I want, I want to get your thoughts on the one social or marketing tool that you could not live without.
It's a little bit of a tie. I hate to do that to you. Uh, crowdtangle is something our team relies on heavily and
or one answer on the sale. Crowdtangle
I'm uh, I'm so on original, uh, it means it's again,
and then I think slack, I mean, I don't know if you consider that. Um, but slack is where we have, we have team of teams, Charlotte team in La, like being able to communicate, being able to back read, um, make sure that everything that goes out has a second set of eyes on it. Uh, slack has been, has been great for that. I can remember doing that via g chat, um, or being one of two people doing the sports on account. And so you're just doing it on your own. Um, thankfully those days are behind me
for like a team of 25. What's your guys's slps or procedures like is there always a senior person reviewing copy before it goes out? Or do you train and manage all 25 like you're, you're trained, you're trusted, do your thing.
We have trusted in everyone we bring in after they're onboarded, but we do have what I call a DCL. It's just a daily content lead. Uh, someone who is more experienced, usually a senior, senior social specialist and up and they're the quarterback. I mean, they're, they're looking down the field. They're, um, figuring out what we need to cover, what we have at when news breaks there, uh, finding those lanes of, OK, sports centers going to go with this graphic. Um, ESPN is going to go with this video. NFL is going to do this treatment. Um, and in terms of back reading, the DCL was in half to back read everything. But they do, they do need to be, um, very present and aware and ultimately they're held accountable for the posts that go out.
How would this help in the guide that you didn't get pushed with the cases for every ESPN tweet or you may, uh, let it go clinically and say, and so I'm glad you don't have to do that. Um, what is, uh, I think it's important that understand that nobody's perfect. The New York Times has copy errors every single day in their newspapers. Um, I can share with you once you don't feel vulnerable, but once there has, was there a moment where you click send on something or you just made a, uh, an error or something that you'd look back at your career? Like, oh my God, that was so silly and caught it right away and, and I just love hearing those stories.
Yeah, I have a, yeah, I have a great one. Um, I dunno. Great. And I think I had been working, I was probably on my 10th hour of your back back bag and I was one of two people doing sports center social. I was at home covering the NBA game. Um, and I put Stan Van Gundy instead of Jeff Van Gundy and quoting something. I mean, not a bad, right. Not a massive error,
but right away, like what do you in idiots too, you know,
but not a massive error. But the first person to catch the error was the, was the president of the country.
Oh, that does make it a very, okay.
Yeah. Cut that right away. So that's one I'll never forget.
That's good. Um, do you have, uh, do you have a personal guilty social follow?
Oh, take accounts on Instagram very, very into take accounts. Um, let's see. Uh, one of my favorites is going gets all live. Okay. Which is a Vermont Pam from Vermont. It's a pig in Vermont. Um, mini peg or I don't know. I don't know technically how many, uh, and then Esther, Esther, the wonder pig, um, who I believe is still there. Yeah. So check that out. Um, I'm a big animal lover. I, uh, and yeah, I don't know. I, I just, I've always, I've always wanted a pig pet. I don't have one yet, so we'll see.
How are they doing? The cold, you're in the snow all the time, so, yeah,
the great, no, they're great. Isn't that right?
All right. In our industry, I always say this, Fomo is a major thing and boot things move so quickly. Um, you know, God forbid Betty don't hop on that Ige TV platform update immediately, especially at ESPN. So what's the one thing that you recommend or do to kind of stay up to date on all these different changes and algorithm changes and everything like that?
One of the things I do, maybe this isn't a great work life balance tip, but I will grab
lunch a lot of times and go to just go to Google news and type in keywords of platforms and to see what, you know, the recodes and yes, a tech crunch and all those different, that crunch is right. Yeah. Just any, any sort of latest and greatest on, um, on social platforms. And then we also have a slack channel with managers and we'll drop in interesting articles. Um, I get a bunch of different newsletters inside Social Hashtag sports daily. Um, but yeah, I think it's just, it's honestly, I think you have to have a real passion for it. You have to want to be a student of the game and in order to stay on top of it. Cause like you said, you can't, you can't take a week off something, something changes.
Have you done that? Have you took a vacation like to Thailand or something like that and just cut the digital leaves completely for two weeks? Yeah.
The last vacation I took was my honeymoon. Um, did you, when did this point was about a year ago and I didn't fully connect because how inconsiderate as this Lebron made his decision to go la of course he did. So yeah, I was in the lobby trying to get Wifi just to, I mean the team had it covered. I was just, it's, you know, it's a neat for me to be like what are we doing? This is the biggest, you know, biggest free agency story. And I knew as soon as we booked it I was like all right, well this is gonna happen.
Yeah. Cause of course it's going to happen. Um, for you, like what keeps you inspired and coming into work everyday. Kind of geeking out over stuff. Cause you guys, like I said, you have so many initiatives, so many partners. I'm sure there's, there's days where it's like, I mean see's what am I, you know, what's going on here. So what is that underlying passion or inspiration for you?
That's such a good question. I think for me, I, I've always been, I mean, my friends, I've always, uh, made fun of me for being a nerd and wanting to, once I, once I start something, I really want to throw myself into it and, and give it my all and understand every angle of it. Um, so I think that that is just something I've always, I've always done. But now that most of what I do, I mean I'm not really, uh, creating as much as I used to, you know, coming up with the actual, um, post ideas and copy. And so now I'm inspired by the talented group of people I'm fortunate enough to manage, right? Like seeing them come up with the idea and execute it. Um, just seeing how, how talented they are, it's that inspires me to be the best version of myself and to make sure, frankly, that I'm blocking them from some of the things that could detract them from their career process. Um, I do feel like a huge part of what I try to do is, um, make sure that they have that ability to really be the best, um, social media producers that they can be.
That's awesome. Funny you say that because
I'm the same with me. Like I didn't really know I had like a love for leadership or watching a team grow, but once you have that team underneath you, it's very inspiring to give somebody that dream, to get some of their dream job or to hire somebody, put them in a spot, train them, and then see them flourish in that role. It's like a really cool, it's definitely the best. Yeah, it's definitely the best part.
Um, are you going to Crawford Con April 20th? Let's see. Will you be there?
I might be there. I might be there. If not. What's, what's the travel distance from Bristol to a JFK? It's about two and a half. [inaudible] yeah, but I mean to get the city is not, is not bad. Um, so yeah. Well you will have to, you can come visit at some time. Yeah, we'd love, I'll come, I'll come to you, but if not, we'll make sure that the Turkey vultures take a day and uh, there's no, yeah, you're not in any danger. You guys have to get like a, you know, shatterproof glass now and I mean that's a, that's a hazard. Yeah. Steven ain't working hard for you guys to work on that [inaudible] port. Luckily again, like, you know, no, no harms.
Can you imagine Steven was an IRR for two months because of a Turkey molter anyway, a good stuff. Well, Katie, thanks so much for the time and all the knowledge he dropped. That was, that was amazing. Thank you.
Thanks for having me. It was great. It was fun. Thanks.
All right guys. There C was Katie daily, senior director of ESPN social. A just happened to be that a Turkey vulture flew in the Steven Smith's office on the while. We sat down a couple of hours before we sat down for this podcast. So that took a, I had to dig into that a little bit, figure out what was going on. Um, but I thought that was really, really helpful. I think, you know, this is a podcast that we'll send to many people because I think her and I, you know, really got into the depths of, um, you know, from a analytical standpoint to a partner standpoint to how to explain social to some of the executives and presidents of CEOs of these different brands. And they're not in it every day. And I think, um, there's a five balance from a political standpoint on how you're able to do your job, but also explain to others how your job has done.
And also balancing, you know, with a team of 25. I mean, that's a, that's not a very big team, you know, for, for all they do in ESPN, the worldwide leader in sports for all the different handles they oversee. And again, all the talent they have to be interface with, whether it's Stephen a and Adams after Max Kellerman. And the list goes on and on and on and on. So I think they do a tremendous job, uh, based on, you know, what they're able to output on a daily basis. It's really incredible. And the pressure is on, you know, both from a copy standpoint and a content standpoint. Everybody expects the sports center ESPN handled to have that content right away and it needs to be on point and no spelling errors and make sure that you're being fair to both sides. Um, definitely a lot of stuff going on there.
So really like that I think, you know, digging into how it's sanes right when it comes to ESPN and you know, it used to be linear, linear and now with the addition of e plus and the addition of understanding the brand awareness aspect of, Hey, if we upload this video on Youtube of Stephen a, that'll attract more users to the first take brand, which will then affect linear ratings and digital ratings and e plus subscribers. And like she said, I'm really excited about these apps like e plus because you know now you're actually going to be able to track, hey, when we post this type of video on Instagram, it leads to more subscribers on a plus. Then this piece of content on Instagram. And once we're able to have that, those analytics, it's going to open up, I think, um, this entire industry because you're actually going to be, it'll approve clear ROI on all these different platforms.
So hope you guys enjoyed that. I really enjoyed talking to stop with her. I think that's why I appreciate this medium so much cause you're really able to get granular with a lot of this stuff and learn from each other. So that was awesome. Once again, a senior director of ESPN Social Katy daily. Thanks so much for joining the program. I want to thank uh, Lauren will Kelly, I'll tee light out the light. This is the second to last show. I think he's gonna be in the house. Uh, he was what part of the all 30 episodes. So appreciate everything he's done for the program as well. Once again, this has been another edition of the business of social podcast hosted by David Brickley, powered by STN digital.