Instagram is Turning Into the New QVC, with Peter Leeb


Want to learn more about marketing and advertising in the digital age? Peter Leeb has got you covered. He was the VP of Global Brand Marketing at Fox for 8 years, and now is the EVP, Head of Partnerships & Operations at Studio 71.

Peter joined the the show to discuss marketing with modern technology, his core beliefs when it comes to social platforms, and the keys to marketing to different audiences. Is Instagram the 2019 version of QVC? How effective are targeted ads? Are influencer partnerships worth it?

Here are the highlights:

[15:20]: Do Brands Understand Who Their Consumer Is?  


David: “Social and that targeted market has enable people to really know their audience before they go spend all types on money on marketing.”

Peter: “ What Instagram has come out with recently and has been testing for probably 6-12 months, on the commerce engine standpoint, we’re one click away! It’s the 2019 version of QVC. You’re scrolling feeds and you saw that cool jacket, that cool pair of sunglasses and you buy it!

David: “I bought a piece of artwork for my office because I was targeted!”

Peter: "Social has enabled so many brands and talented creators to grow, and it’s a learning experience and you can grow and adjust, where do we place our links? What works? What doesn’t?”

Full Transcripts

Alright, y'all. He is the EVP head of partnerships and operations at studio 71. Peter Leave joins us on the business. Social. Peter, what's going on man?

How are you? Thanks for having me.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's get into it. Um, I always ask a random question at the top of the show and scroll on your Twitter feed. I know you're a Lakers fan. First of all. I'm a Laker fan as well, so sorry for your loss. Uh, this, uh, this season, uh, but over under one championship for Lebron James as a Laker,

I'm going with under eight. I hate to say that as a, as a person born and raised in Los Angeles on the Lakers and we got the good years of the eighties runs and show showtime and I got the great years out of Kobe and Shaq. It's just, it just doesn't feel like it. It just feels like it's going to take way too long. And I hate to say that, uh, so I get them all, all of a sudden to become a bucks fan cause I did not.

Yeah, exactly. I mean we'll see what happens this summer, but there's something about, I think Lebron, he brings a certain type of drama to wherever he goes. But a lot of that was massed over when he was in the finals for nine straight years. Um, but when he doesn't make the playoffs now a lot of this stuff is coming out. So, you know, like they always say when you're wedding it's all good, but when you're losing the skeleton starts to come out.

You know, what, if there's one thing I know

from social platform from the Brian at least is drinking some good wine at the end of the [inaudible]. Yeah, exactly. That may have been the, uh, that's it for me. Um, well cool man. I want to jump into your story cause you know, I think we originally met through a mutual friend Kate. Yeah. You worked at Fox for about eight years and you the VP of global marketing. So I really want to dig into your history on that. Uh, but let's start, I guess first and foremost with your current position and kind of breakdown for the listeners what studio 71 is all about.

You know, the thing is, it kind of stems from the fact that I think, you know, working at the studio both on film and Television and that was the thing at the end customer, at the end of the day you start noticing things, right? You start noticing kind of the trends of what's happening all over the world. I think for me the idea was content television, film short form, long form mid form, um, played such a role in a more pivotal role in the lives of right all of us, every single day on every single platform. Uh, that I essentially thought, you know, hedge the idea that social video, whatever social video looks like in the future is going to continue to accelerate. I think it your rights, I always say vertical horizontal platform one platform to platform three. Ultimately it'll keep figuring itself out. But we clearly see consumption habits, um, have drastically evolved over a really even the last five years.

And that's what we do at cvs 71. That was the interesting thing for me, which is we're right now one of the largest producers and distributors of social video. I think a lot of people over the years, even before I joined thought of it as a very heavy youtube, you know, Youtube centric company, you content and creative company and I told myself that's, that's where the world, that's where the platforms kind of emerged off of. But you know, we're producing and monetizing and working with advertisers as much on Youtube as we are on Instagram stories, Ige, TV, twitch, TechTalk and whatever platform wants to emerge in the next six to 12 months.

You're so right about that. I've always said that I think people get too hung up on this is a linear TV. So, and, or is it a social video? Like, I mean really the content is always gonna be the content and whether it's on Netflix or on NBC linear or on Ige TV in a vertical format. It sounds like you're kind of in my school of thought is like if the content is good, I like what you did there. Platform one, platform to platform three, it doesn't matter. People will come to good content.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I was just having this conversation with some old colleagues who have now, you know, obviously moved on to whether it's, did you Disney Pos world or Netflix, Amazon or Hulu or youtube or Twitter. You know, technology's enabled this at the end of the day. Well, we're still operating in a storytelling fashion, right? It's just we can tell stories without the parameters and Bardwell if you want to tell a 20 minutes story, seven minute story and eight minute story, a 60 minutes story. And I think the beauty of technology now is it's enabled that pretty seamlessly from content production and what it now takes to make something now the distribution pipes. And to me that's exciting. The more the more content, the better. At the end of the day you said it, it's going to rise. Good stuff, right? Yeah.

It's always been that way. Do you think about it from a featured film that's two hours to a 30 minute sit calm to a 32nd commercial. It's just different ways of telling stories with different time limits. And it seems like all that really exchanged changed with technology. It's maybe just a format. And that used to be the case with television with four by three set top boxes and then it went to widescreen 16 by nine. So, um, I, I don't think enough people do this, but I always, I think television, um, really set the blueprint originally and we're just going through that change. It just happened a lot faster than it did 20 years ago.

Yeah. It's funny, I use, I kind of use a similar analogy all the time, which is either television, whether, whether it's kind of the early days of broadcast or kind of be expansion cable with paid TV or subscription. Now it's taken decades, 40, 50, 60, 70 years to figure this stuff out, right? Yeah. Standardization, the way the models have operated, um, the changes, the proliferation of technology and what that does if you've taken those industries a long, long, long time. I think social, digital, however we want to classify it now, you know, it's a decade or so old and, and look at the scale and reach. And so I think we have a ways to go in terms of growing both from a, from a content standpoint and then a business and modernization standpoint across this way right now. But I mean, everyone, we all see the numbers, the numbers don't lie. There is an incredible amount of consumption happening across the board, uh, for, for different audiences. And yeah, I think it's a great time to be part of the content industry.

So I would love to get your thoughts and kind of inside baseball a little bit into the industry cause you know, spending eight years at Fox, um, you know, as the, as the VP of global marketing, you, you played in that game, but you decided to go more of the digital route probably a lot sooner than maybe some of your colleagues. And now you've seen I think what six conglomerates now on every television network in the world or in the country. Um, where do you think that's all heading and what do you think television has to do in order to survive? Like the technology that we're seeing moved so quickly?

It's interesting. I think in the early days of Fox I've always kind of had this through line of digital and digital enterprise and technology and distribution, um, across the company. And it's, it's an evil so much both from a marketing and a content standpoint right now. And I think it's the good and the bad of industries. Industries get disrupted. We're in disruption, period. I think we're a very positive disruption period at the end of the day, from a consumer standpoint, right? With the choices available. I don't frankly think anyone knows where it's going. No, I think, I think a lot of people will. We're all taking big bet. I think we're clearly is doing kind of the thesis finders is really interesting, right? You've got only so much time in the day. You've got segments of your day, therefore let's create a linear narratives or live news or all the other things we're working on with the recent announcement on the other side of the spectrum, you know, I deal with kids under the age of give or take 28 years old these days and I'm seeing every day, I hate to say it, but what the date is saying to me, like the day parts, what they're watching, the consumption time, somebody like who, somebody in the gaming industry or for that loves video games, whether they're considering on youtube or twitch.

We were talking about videos of Gameplay in excess of 25 30 45 minutes of game play. That's a very different type of consumption habit. And you know folks we we look at on Instagram that are going through beauty tutorials in a matter of minutes. So you know, I think I kind of look at it now as segmentation of audiences and I think, you know, probably a lot of the Escalade players in the market are looking at it too in terms of audience clusters, right? I just need to satisfy these types of clusters. How I satisfy them are going to be differ and technology is ultimately providing kind of that throughline to get the content to one. So I think it's great. I watch a lot of different costumes and my wife, I'm sure you watch them more contents to me but different. Yeah, we're all being able to consume it in an on demand basis and I think that's great for us as an industry.

I like how you approach it cause it seems like kind of like me like more of the data and the scientists part of it. Cause it really is a science. If you think about, you know, all these different platforms and where it's going. I'd love to hear from you. 5G I don't think enough people are talking about that. And I think, you know, what we saw when 4g came out was the introduction of Instagram video and Facebook video and it really changed social as we know it. Um, I personally think from like a, you know, an ESPN plus standpoint, a Netflix standpoint, like there's still buffering issues. They're still connected in a suit and it really doesn't make that experience as clean as it used to be with your cable set top box. But I think when five g is at scale, it's gonna make it so seamless that a lot of people are going to officially make that switch and it should be big

from everything I've heard in the industry. Like you probably have talked to folks about, it's going to allow that cross platform, uh, watching to kind of take off the power that we're going to be able to have on mobile or tablets or on whatever device you ultimately choose. I think, again, it's, it's going to enable that much better continent storytelling for the, for the end user. Um, and I think we've seen it over the last five years. I had the same problem I already said, right. I was still buffering three or four years ago on my streaming mechanisms and it takes the enjoyment out of content and I went down linear devices. Yeah. I can't remember the last time I truly buffered at least at home anymore. Yeah. Technology's enabled that therefore, right. You don't have to worry as much about use your drop-off or churn or anything now about the content in enabling that kind of stuff. So yeah, I think I'm really, really excited as I think the industry is, especially with a few of the big players round around five G.

Yeah. It's super close. I, I do, I remember reading a story that everybody watching the Superbowl and the CBS app and the fourth quarter the app went down. Um, so it's,

thank you too. I think youtube went down to, I think it was the, uh, NBA One of the NBA playoff games last year where all of a sudden, you know, I think you're in the last three or four minutes, which is pretty much the only time I think you blocked sports.

Exactly. Yeah.

Right. And all of a sudden there you go, streaming down, got to go back in your world where you know what works

exactly. So I think, yeah, I'm super excited for five g cause I think, I agree we're super close but maybe we're like at 80% and once it gets up to 99.9%, it's going to be kind of full throttle head. Um, with your background, I'd love to really get into the essence of marketing as a whole. I mean, how do you, whether you are working on linear, and I know I read up on you a little bit, you did some really cool things with empire in the Simpsons and getting these different things going on, uh, on a global distribution scale. But from a marketing approach, how do you personally approach marketing and kind of what's your core belief when you're marketing a brand or a product?

Yeah, I think, you know, looking at it through a different Lens these days, right? Um, I'm looking at it from a lens of how do we help advertisers utilize social influencer marketing in ways that they're probably not thinking about today because it's always been, and it was this way when I was on the other side, kind of the afterthought, right? We've, we've, we're meeting budgets with influencer marketing and I think we as an industry and the ones who are doing it right, a lot of them are, are the d to c challenge your brand marketplace. Um, it's, it's a conversation no different than any other type of media they're buying these days. Right? And I think we as an industry need to be kind of pushing up all forward. I need to be thinking of it as part of the overall marketing mix right now. I don't think it's good enough and I don't think it's being utilized in a way.

And this can mean a lot of things. Content, content, production, distribution, creation of assets if it's not being utilized to its fullest capabilities right now. And I think today that's kind of where we're coming in and my team was coming in to help people. Um, as I like to say, figure out how we take this from branded content to branded content at scale. And it can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people, but you know, we can't be this separate siloed group anymore. I think a lot of people are starting to see that on the, on the brand marketing side too. Yeah. Social or who's your digital person? It's generalist you,

it's all the sudden. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

You got to know how to make, how to package your product the same way that you're marketing it or that you are trying to reach people in media or are you trying to build a growth strategy around user acquisition? It's gotta be the theme teams that are thinking about how all these engines work together. And I think more and more kind of being on both sides now, the buying and sell side, I think we're, I'm sorry to see that more and more. I think there's a lot of interesting companies out there that are starting to create, you know, kind of call it the general list marketing groups now to be able to react to what the data is saying on a given time, you know, or even real time how the TV campaign is exactly the same. How, you know, my atom home is doing, how am I retail is what prisons doing and one you need people who are specific in some of those key feel. I think we're starting to move to a little bit more of a generalist approach

now. How have you seen, uh, you know, over the years in terms of like the rate card and what's your guarantee and partners? You know, it's tough. A, a view on Facebook is this three seconds of view on linear is 15 minutes of consumption. So the metrics are kind of all over the place. But in terms of, um, being able to report that guarantee people a certain amount of impressions, what have you seen worked and what have you seen clients and partners really enjoy about, uh, investing and getting a return out of it?

The social industry is clearly gone through some challenges. I think, you know, outside of the obvious one, I think there is, there's a movement towards a little bit more standardization just like the traditional market has more and more. But I also think we're shortchanging ourselves. Say at the end of the day, the world I play in the social content world, it's tough to make content. It's tough to make good content. It's tough for that content to reach these cohorts of audiences. And there's value to it. There's tremendous value to individuals. What do you want to call them? Talent are influencers, creators, caliber, talent. And there's tremendous value to a lot of that stuff. And I think we as an industry are shortchanging ourselves in the sense that, you know, we've got, um, you know, the buyer's side looking at very specific, um, CPM metrics around it. Like it's numbers game. Sure. It makes total sense, but we don't, we don't value, you know, being a part of the traditional talent world and the kind of the same way, like there's value to individuals and their audiences beyond what the number says. Uh, and I think that that's the direction we're starting, I think to educate folks on it. And again, it's grown pains

when you say that you're meaning, hey listen, we much rather target and get 50,000 impressions or views by a demo that really will potentially buy your product or want to be a part of it. Rather than saying we're going to guarantee you seven and a half million impressions to an audience that is not the target.

Yeah. And I think both strategies are fine and I think every company comes out of it a little differently and every company has many different objectives and goals to, to a lot of these campaigns. Let's, let's look at the Challenger brand marketplace. Like why have they been able to succeed? Well, they kind of were forced into the idea of digital first user acquisition strictly because I think they didn't have the funds to be able to just kind of go out and spray a message across the board. And so with, with all of their kind of performance and user acquisition tactics, influencer marketing, and kind of using big one, they're able to learn and have a really good idea of their audience before they've now gone traditional. But in order to scale, you look at Warby Parker of Casper a rent the runway, blotchy brick and mortar out of home, you know, certain types of TV campaign. That's not one of them sponsoring a, you know, one of the major sporting events last year. Yeah. But they knew who their audience, what they didn't shortchange the fact that they spent money on understanding, you know, their audience, where the content that's going to look for the audience. And I think others, I see other brands in the marketplace are simply looking at as, as a numbers game. And I think you've got to look at it both ways. Yes.

Yeah. Well look at West. I mean they built their entire 6 billion per year empire, whatever it is. I mean on the back bone of Facebook ads. I mean your user is, yeah,

a lot of companies that are, you know, I remember a company that built this, you know, it was a cool sunglass product, a single skew of sunglasses offers kind of cracking.

What was that movement?

It wasn't [inaudible] very kind of a very similar product at the end. Right,


Well look at it, look at it the other way. So we did a campaign with our partners on good mythical morning, which is, you know, I really sold the biggest show on youtube with website, Dalton company, right? Six month campaign, digital campaign. I just kind of talk a lot about this in the marketplace. What happened, that campaign performed so well for wix that a piece of content that the team built became a Superbowl spot after a creator led or the idea of a creator led campaign performing well and knowing their audience. And it usually gets translated as a Superbowl spot, not a Superbowl spot. That took six months to build and research against and focus groups and qualitative and quantitative. Yeah. Natural digital campaigns first that then broadly distributed Superbowl. Right. And there's, there's tremendous value. Clearly something like that. So there, I think there's a lot of ways to kind of, you know, I will say skin the cat on this, um, yeah. In the marketplace right now. And every brand has got a slightly different objective than, you know, I think it's going thing.

Absolutely. Um, and like you said in the past, it's like, let's spend $5 million on that Superbowl commercial because that's what we do without knowing like, so social and that targeted market has, it has enabled people to really know their audience before they go spend tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing.

Oh, I got it. It's great. You know, I think you see a lot of the, uh, use growth brands out there right now. W I mean, they're, they're testing incredible pieces of content, right? It's again, cohorts, audiences right now actually trying to pinpoint who they are, who they're truly trying to target. They might have an idea. I've added enough brand plan meetings where the audience is they're actually trying to go after, which is pretty broad in the scheme of things is actually not the audience that wants the product. Yeah. This marketplace and this social influencer marketplace allows all the testing to actually occur and the ability to wipe and distribute this thing. I think distribution is, is a great metric tactic, but the value in making good content hundred percent

um, I know this is somewhat of a loaded question, but if let's just make up a product. If I said, Peter, I got this product. I have no marketing, I'm going to give you $1 million. Let's market this thing as efficiently as humanly possible and get a lot of eyeballs in front of it. What's a, what's the main thing you, you look at? What's your go to strategy on? Awesome like that.

I think I don't need that. I don't even think I need that budget to actually get gone. I know some people, I think I didn't for 25 or $50,000 these days. You can get a really good sense of whether your product is going to move in the marketplace

and where are you going right away to to figure that out or ab test that.

Right. The social platforms. Yeah. I'm testing you very efficiently across majority of the social platforms. I still think staff's got tremendous value on, um, you know, with a lot of mobile game publisher clients of ours with transactional components, pretty seamless if you actually use snap. Right. A lot of all, a lot of offerings, we still use it to be able to download and transact against that. I think what Instagram has come out with recently and then they've been obviously testing it really seems like for the last six to 12 months on a commerce engine standpoint.

Woo. That's what I bet. Game Changer. Yeah.

Well one click away. I say I've said it for the last couple of years. Probably it is QVC. It's the 2019 version of [inaudible].

Yeah. I like it now.

Right. We're, we're scrolling feeds the way the algorithm is operating, you know, I know some people have have issues with the targeting of something like that. Right. It's a little big brother at times. But I mean have you, have you purchased stuff? You know, you saw that cool jacket, the crude, the cool pair of socks.

100% I have our, I have our work in my office because I was targeted a called months ago.

Yeah. And it's, it's great. It's a learning experience and you can grow and you can adjust and you can see what message is right or were, I hate to get granular on where that, you know, links or place where links are placed are forcing a message across the board. So I think social skill has, has enabled so many brands, both brands and in talent and creators to grow. Look at what we're fueling. We're fueling new businesses, new small businesses and say these are the kind of, we won't give your car to me. That's great.

You and I get it cause we live in this space. But it is kinda crazy to think about. I mean, what am I even talking about five, 10 years ago where people would spend millions upon millions of dollars and just put a billboard up on sunset, do a magazine ad on page 247 and there's no real way to know if that resonated, if people remembered that if there was a brand experience, like there's no data, which now that you can get data and I think people are like you and I that live in, it's like, why would you not go to the place that gives you hard metrics of it if it worked or not? You know,

I think back to 15 years ago, like my early, early agency days and nothing, all the information research and client compensation th even then or, or at the studio, but we are in a little bit of Mi data paralysis standpoint too, right? I think everyone else, you know, use the Steve Jobs, you know, perspective on, you know, just running creative from your gut. At the same time. We sell good scripts and I think there's probably something, you know, for most brand somewhere in the middle, um, of that. But you know, before I spend a real dollars on any new product, I sure would love to know who my true audience is and not, again, that audience.

Well, I think I used this, uh, kind of joke earlier this week I think, but it's frustrating. You come from a linear background, you know what it takes to put together a beautiful spot and the meetings and the storyboarding and the white boarding and in all of the people it goes, it goes any, so you, you launch this beautiful, let's say a 32nd or a minute narrative that's gorgeous and it gets a thousand likes on Instagram. Somebody posts post the egg on Instagram and it's the most liked photo of all time on Instagram. So it's like a, from a creator standpoint, there are times, like you said, where you put together a really great spot, a really great idea, and it just, it just doesn't resonate the same way that beam does or the pop culture thing may have randomly took off.

Yeah. And it's funny in the early days of social, um, you know, I remember a lot of discussion being around much, you know, let's just get the views and let's just boost it. Right? It was before everyone caught onto growth hacking and being able to do that. But many industries basically, you know, have a loud headlines around that, right? The most viewed spots and these use this the most you that it's easy to do. Like you and I could create something.


he is right. I just got a bunch of money on it and I think it's fine. Again, I think the distribution of good content has its place, but I think there's a lot of great opportunity to kind of build up from it right now and to explore and test different things. I mean, we're in a content creation world. I'm, both of us are really in a content creation world right now and on a lot of campaigns, you know, we're probably producing between 15 and 25 different pieces of content, very different aesthetics to the content across multiple platforms to truly see what's going to work and right. And it's test, but also maybe, I don't know, maybe half of them actually perform. Maybe, maybe one. You don't know why risk is these days.

Yeah, I love that. Um, so what do you think, you know, a common mistake that brands or marketers are making that you see in our space that you think people so pay more attention to or kind of be more of a north star for their, their decisions?

I kinda, I think I started with this, but I think a lot of it is viewed as an afterthought. I think it's a, you know, something's not working. Let's throw, it used to be something's not working. Let's throw some money at digital. And everyone uses the term broad, right? While I'm talking about enterprise technology, digital media, digital content, what are we talking about? I think now it's a little bit of, we're still in a little bit of the same. They campaign's not working. Let's throw, let's see if some influencers can really help us go like, right, let's still, you know, let's still distribute it. Let's go get some eyeballs against it. Versus actually, how do they work with your overall marketing mix? It seems like a no brainer, but it's also the way I think a lot of brands are structured these days and where these budgets kind of fall into place, right?

Having, having, I don't even say a seat at the table, you don't even see this deal. We just need to have a normal conversation with on the marketing side of let's get down to it. Like what are we actually trying to accomplish? Are we trying to produce some high quality content that happens to be distributed socially? Are we using creators as [inaudible] and distribution, which is starting to change based on the platforms. Are we using them to create, you know, a unique point of view, right? They all have different styles. Aesthetics looks, people are even, you know, people are getting into animation, uh, stop motion graphics, right? We can have different types of visual, etc. Verbal. So what are we actually trying to do with making it right now? And then we can look at your overall distribution plan, but it's still a little bit of an afterthought, which is why know I think we've been successful in helping a lot of companies really curate that.

Um, when I ask this question, does anything come to mind that like the most successful digital campaign that you've been a part of, or maybe something that you didn't know that was gonna take off like it did, but holy smokes, it, it went crazy and you were just blown away by the numbers or the response to it?

I think the immediacy, I'm going use the industry as the example. I think the immediacy of, um, mobile games is extraordinary. I think. Yeah. Uh, I think a lot of the mobile game publishers like your scope Lee as an example, you see, you know, they have, they have one goal for the most part, all of them in one goal, which is get this game and the top of the charts immediately, right? Because the long tail of what that impact does, it actually reminds me a little bit about the film business, let's call it a decade ago. Right? You needed to opening weekend, opening night, everybody was waiting for, you know, let's even get past the phone calls the facts, right? Yep. Some of the digital numbers, because you could extrapolate all the formulas based on what box office number happened is [inaudible].

Even if the movie wasn't that strong, if you had a solid box office opening weekend, it's going to perform. You're going to make money,

you're getting at, you're going to make money. But you also know, right? There's models behind it. You knew what you had to do. You knew if you could pull back money or, or go all in on something like that. Right. It was, it was a, uh, it was a prediction vehicle for all of that was happening in the mobile game space, I think. Is it near that kind of event idea? Like, like a good movie where they really put it all up front, right? They're trying to drive those acquisitions and trying to drive those downloads that fuels, you know, whether it's console and DLC or micro transactions, again, transactions and so forth. It fuels that vehicle. So I think as an industry, I think we're fascinating. What's happening.

Well, I had that whole like bind set of like, let's just get someone to download the app and it's your point inside. The app wants to get addicted to it. Let's get the micro transactions going. Like, Oh, you want that sealed there? Oh, you want to play a little bit longer? Oh, you don't want ads? Okay. It's in a costume. Like Upload 25 bucks a year account. You can buy some coins to do that. Right.

They did get me into the movie theater. Let me make money off popcorn and drinks.

Yeah, exactly.

Rideable experience that was just marketed to me. Just like an event at scale. Get me into that, that garden and wow. Oh, we've, you know, we've just seen a lot of reports lately about, you know, how all these algorithms that are built in the addiction to a lot of the platforms or hardware on your phone, so forth. I think it's, uh, I think it's incredible what's happening beginning of district.

So since you deal with this a lot in your day to day from an influencer standpoint, we talked about law to show last couple of episodes how an influencer is a bad word and the first time you are influencer, it's a, you think of Kim Kardashian or Kendall Jenner. Yeah, it definitely is. It's something funny. We've mentioned this a lot in this show to, you know, the uh, the fire festival documentary has as a really, the influencer word is now I think more and our culture and people understand kind of, Oh wow, they made a, made a splash by doing this whole orange tile thing. But we'll love to just get your overall thoughts on the state of influences right now, how best to utilize them and how you've seen success, um, with them.

Yeah. You know, I think I started at city of 71 about three years in a row, about little over two years ago, give or take a $3 billion marketplace. I think today we're closing in if not six or half past 6 billion. Yeah, it's tremendous growth. I mean, it just shows people, people are buying into it. Fire Festival aside. It's all about the execution, the idea of influencer marketing works, right? We're even seeing people move towards as talking at Sundance about this, you know, whether you like it or not. The idea of artificial influencers and e it's an interesting topic and interest in demand. Um, I think the challenge right now is the buyer side has to, the content, right? People have to watch and understand the content that they're getting into right now. Right. A lot of brands still have heavy guardrails, which I can very much understand specific ways of handling it and maybe it's right for them and maybe it's not right for them, but I don't also want to [inaudible].

Yeah. What do you, sorry, Hon. What do you mean by that? Just not, not being genuine to that influences audience and kind of,

Oh, 100% a hundred hundred percent yeah, very limiting. Very limiting in the creative, you know, I think what I learned from television, you let the creators of shows create, Dave brought in the audience. They know what the audience wants. And at the end of the day. And if you can allow them flexibility within reason, then it's probably not the right show. Telling Creator


To be a part of right now. And I think a lot of what's happening is because it's a numbers game, right? Because we're, we're focused on that. Whether you're choosing a been created or midsize creator, a manual creator, a fake creator, whatever you want to call it, you on the buyer side, on the brand side, we've got to start watching the content we're a part of, right? You don't buy into a show like modern family or big things. There are the walking dead without somebody having watched, you know, the car you're getting at an FX versus um, you know, uh, another network to kind of probably skews very different from them. And I think we need as an industry on influencer and social to kind of adapt similar principles, which is

it's lazy to use laser advertising. Yeah.

Yeah. And, and I see it every single day. I work with fortune 500 brands down to direct to consumer brands. The people who are making great content with us are the ones that say, I love that person for this reason because I've watched their content and this is the format that I'm buying into because I watched the content [inaudible] this is Ian. This in cumulative is going to get these 75 million views at this rate. Oh by the way, I don't like the Cadet, the content they make like we gotta move. We gotta move beyond that.

I brought this example up before too, but one of my favorite recent examples of a brand partnership was fitbit did something with inside the NBA and they just made this segment where they tracked Charles Barkley's steps over the course of the night. And you know, they're, they're laughing at them and they had like a, you know, a time lapse of him just sitting down and the whole time. But it's just like, it was so organic. And I'm laughing as a sports fan and I love that show and I love hearing from Charles and I love how they make fun of them. And at no point did I feel like fitbit is trying to shove this product down my throat. And I think that's just such an easy concept to comprehend, but it just isn't followed like you said by, by most brands. I would say

that's a great example. Like you got to have the trust on both sides that they're, they're not going to tarnish your brand and at the end of day, yeah. You know what that group, they're professionals at it and it makes for, it's not even content, it's just part of the storyline to everything, which is why it's so good. Um, I think that is a great example. I mean we just ran a campaign with a US marine. I'll have to send it to you after this podcast. Yeah, that was all about the, the training, the routine kind of, you know, that at any million goes through it was creators rather than, but it's intense. Like I mean this is,

yeah. And it's valuable content. Like people get value added

valuable content and it also feels like, you know, you or I are going through this, right. Did the training day in and day out to be a marine. I mean it's, it's extraordinary. Um, yes, they're quote creators, but it's specific creators who make content that suited for this. Their style of the way they shoot was suited for this. And, and I think you wouldn't even, you just, you make the association but not like the brand is in your face more.

Yup. All right. So I know we gotta get you Outta here. So some rapid fire here to wrap up. Um, what is the one social or marketing tool that you could not live without?

God, that's such a good question. It's not even rapid-fire anymore.


To me it's not in the tool. It's the platform. I, I'm personally just obsessed with Twitter right now and where I get my info, you know, where I get my information, where my communication is coming from. I never thought I'd be communicating with people more on Twitter as, as a messaging vehicle than my own email.

That's awesome. Um, I rank in order for you, cause I think you're, you're digging into the science behind the data for you, for brand partnerships. And your day to day in order of importance. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, snapchat, youtube,

every brand, every industry, completely different ranking beauty, Instagram focused, direct to consumer right now. Youtube focus and trackable mobile game companies, I think still heavy influence.

Awesome. Uh, in our industry, Fomo is a major thing. Well, how do you keep up, I mean our industry moves so quickly. Uh, what do you do to kind of stay on the cutting edge and, and and stay, stay ahead of it.

The old school way of talking to people, I think I probably talk to, you know, 20 to 25 clients of all different magnitudes a day and hopefully another 20 people across the industry. And it's everybody from senior executives down to an assistant or coordinator. Yes,


We didn't use product every single day because we all know that at senior levels everyone has other things to worry about. Like let's get into the people that are actually watching and engaging in this stuff

that's so Subar. I think the, the way I built my business to was just from listening, like listening to your market, trying to download every breakfast, every coffee, every phone call. If you could take a little smile away from it, you start to build up this knowledge and you can shift a lot faster if you just have active listening, which is like, it's a skill to be an active listener, uh, and, and, and apply that the next day type deal.

It's funny, my first, I'll always remember my boss, I was working in Ford Motors and he called me, he said, how's it going week one fresh out of college. Oh, you know, it's good. Yeah, this is what we're working on. He was like, no, how's it going? How's the economy going? How's the economy affecting our business? How does that affect the next thing? Right. And it starts making you think there's so much that goes on on a macro and micro level that impacts your specific business today. That's where I go back to social media. Like my Twitter feed is folks like you that I think there's an industry and then yeah, completely opposite people that just are thinking about things differently.

That's awesome. Uh, what inspires you? What's your why? Why you're, why you do it to do

didn't change ever. Every day is something different. We're changing as a, as a society and then as an industry,

what's, by the way, a lot of people hate that, so you have to make sure you enjoy that before you get into this industry.

Hey, you got to play in the gray space. Right? I don't think walking white any more and I think we're all, we're all trying to build, um, at the end of the day. And I think waking up every single morning to something very different and I know I'm going to wake up to something I didn't expect. It's the good and the bad, but to deciding

I love, I'm stealing that you got to play in the gray space. I like that. I'm guilty. Soso follow

juicy social follow. Uh, got it. I'm trying to think who I would. Um, I don't know if he's guilty, but it definitely is not my cup of tea. I am pretty obsessed with glossy A's in business and that beauty space right now is what's going on all a lot in therefore I get a lot of ads that definitely should not be for me. Yeah. That kind of target here. Yeah. I think it's a very, very interesting marketplace.

Uh, any like, I guess overall advice for, you know, there's so many people in our industry that are focused on making good branded content. Um, since you do it like every single day or just a main piece of advice for people that are trying to do that the right way.

No, what you're getting into, know what you're signing up for and owning it and don't second guess yourself on it.

Beautiful. Uh, last question for you, Matt. I always asked at the end of the program, um, if you can recommend anyone into your network that you think would be provide value or my listeners would enjoy hearing from anybody who come to mind that, uh, I should reach out to or try to. [inaudible]

I'll intro, I'll introduce you cause I talk about the, the uh, the gaming industry talked. Okay. Climate Andy Climate, who started a company called the wonder that is really trying to revolutionize that industry. He's actually add up the cow right now. I saw seed before I came here, so that's a good one.

Yeah man. Well, hey man, thank you so much for the time. That was amazing. Peter Lee, I'll be 10 year old doing that. Studio 71. But thanks so much man. I appreciate it.

Good to see you. Thanks for having me.


there is pure lead play in the gray space. I remember when Kim Gibbs junior was on here from bt and he said, um, what was Gospel today? What is a can be blasphemous tomorrow. I stole that line. I use that a lot. But you got to play in the gray area. You got to enjoy playing in the gray area as well as things move so quickly in this industry. And he enjoys waking up every day, not knowing exactly what's gonna happen on that Monday or Tuesday. And I, and I'm the same way, I'm sure a lot of you guys out there listening, like you'll drive yourself insane if you don't enjoy part of that. So that was a really interesting, so you can just tell them that. You could tell that he really digs the data and the science and doesn't just because he believes one thing, it doesn't mean that he makes that a part of his strategy.

He wants actually tested and every brand is different. And you guys hear this a lot. If you guys have been listening for 31 some odd episodes now, it's amazing. But the number one piece of feedback we get is like, just be genuine to the audience. If you're working with an influencer, let them create the content because they know their audience better than anybody. If you're going to put your product on a network or a distribution channel, make sure that they're involved in that because nobody likes to be sold to. Uh, so the more organic and genuine you can be with that, I think overall the more success you will have. So good stuff. Once again, episode 31 with Peter League on the business of social podcasts. I want to thank David [inaudible]. I want to thank Lauren. Well Kelly and this is officially the last episode. Auti light in behind the scenes.

What is going to happen? We're not gonna this is it. 31 may be it. If you guys, the pod squad hasn't figured out how to record this thing. There's gotta be a lot of audio technical difficulties potentially, but I have faith. Uh, but thank you so much Auntie for all that you've done to help launch this show. Really man, we uh, we had an idea, I don't know about a year ago and 31 episodes later and I'm, we're looking forward to episode 100 and about to spring. Well being Auntie back every after 25 episodes, like an anniversary special or something. Um, thanks so much for listening. As always, appreciate your time. Value your time. Um, if you guys enjoyed the show, go to iTunes, rate us five stars, go to youtube, subscribe. So you get the second these shows come out, you'll get that subscriber notification. Once again, my name is David Brickley. This is the business of social podcast powered by STN digital.